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Fronzel Neekburm

Something that DOES worry me...

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At the end of the day, I think the 2 Guys need to just do what they want to do with the game

and make a game they think is really awesome. They're clever guys, so if they make something

that's awesome to themselves, a lot of other people will also find it awesome.

 

Once you start second guessing or trying to sift through opinions on message boards,

you'll get into all sorts of trouble and be dragged in all sorts of directions.

 

Some people love the art style, some people don't -- you can't please everyone.

Some people thought the swiping was fine, some didn't.

Even with the original SQs, some people think the first game is the best, some think the

3rd game is the best, etc.

 

If something is actually broken and is buggy, that's different, but they're going to be

testing it all before it comes out.

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Yeah. The Two Guys have never had a problem with making games we like when they were at Sierra and not getting any fan feedback of what they wanted to see in the next game...unless there's something I don't know. True it's been a while since they've made a game, I choose to not worry. Feedback is good, but it can also be detrimental. If they try to appease everyone's desires they're not making a game they love in the end. I hope they take our feedback with a grain of salt and trust their instincts for the most part. If it flops, well it flops. But we all backed them to see them bring their brand of gaming back to the industry. We wanted to see the ability to make games that they had back then brought back in today. We backed because we loved their games and want them to do it again. That's why I backed, anyway. Let em do it, I say.

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First off, that poster is fucking hilarious. Props.

 

Why, thank you, Doctor.

 

I‘m a bit disappointed in myself to have missed the chance to go for the obvious „Teach‘em the Hardway!“-pun.

 

Some people love the art style, some people don't -- you can't please everyone.

 

I still have to insist it‘s not the „art style“ I have a problem with. If I say „Broken Age looks like a fucking children‘s game!“, then that‘s disagreeing with the art style. If I say „This location looks empty and boring“, then that has nothing to do with the art style (unless empty and boring was a deliberate aesthetic choice - I sincerely hope not!)

 

 

By the way, I hate it when backers try to force their vision on a game they backed. This was especially bad with Moebius. Unfortunately, some of the most dimwitted backer suggestions were accomodated in the final game (such as only being able to pick up objects once you really need them) - features which were subsequently harshly critizised both by players and the gaming media. On the other hand, people said from the very beginning that the animations sucked bad, but those weren‘t changed. Which, again, led to all sorts of criticism. Like MusicallyInspired said, feedback is important. And so is being able to distinguish valid criticism from bullshit nitpicking and listening to the former.

 

All I ask that the TGA snazz things up a bit. And consider dumping a feature that is almost universally disliked (the only people I remember who seemed cool with the controls were Frede and drdrslashvohaul, one other guy was cautiosly optimistic while adding that he didn‘t see much of a point to it and Troels pointed out that they might be put to good use and that he was going to make sure this won‘t turn into Broken Sword).

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Enterting Kickstarter and producing a game after that takes a level headed developers. I've been following my own share of different KS projects and if something is evident it is, that there's always people who disagree what is happening with the project. On some cases it does worry me a bit, that the devs might start trying to please everyone and make changes that might not be so beneficial to the game (I do think this has happened on a couple of occasions, as the devs have decided to change something just to shut some people up).

 

This is such an open way of developing something, that it's just good if the devs know how to filter fan feedback out. In the end they need to do the game they want to do despite that would be entirely different from what the fans were expecting. Otherwise you'll might end up with a product that doesn't please anyone.

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The Two Guys have always done what they felt like. I'm acting as sort of a liason between them and my experiences playing other adventure games, because they honestly don't want to be influenced by anything else. And I'm trying my hardest not to inadvertently push them in a direction where we go, "Oh, popular opinion dictates that this and this is considered bad form or a bad idea, so we probably shouldn't do that."

 

In the end I may be completely biased (in fact, I totally am -- hell, I probably love the Space Quest series much more than anyone would consider healthy), but I am determined to let Scott and Mark build whatever the hell they want to build. Because, at least from my completely biased personal experiences, that's usually what gets the best results.

 

The Two Guys have been masters at taking something that on paper probably sounded like a horrible idea to adventure game purists and turning it into something that inexplicably works. I mean, they pioneered the arcade sequence. They made timer puzzles fun. They made killing off your main character something not to be avoided, but that players actively sought out. That's why I'm not worried. If anything looks or sounds like a bad idea, just wait until you play it. It could change your mind if you give it a chance.

 

The whole business of the art style, I think, does boil down to taste. I'm sorry. It has nothing to do with detail or lack thereof. This other game we're talking about looks damned amazing; no question about that. SpaceVenture, in my book, does too, but in a completely different way. It's more crisp, dare I say more cartoonish without making that sound derogatory. It takes a no frills approach. This, more than anything, I think is a stylistic choice. It may not appeal to everyone; it may scare people into thinking we're going in a Toy Story sort of direction. I happen to know that's not true.

 

Tl;dr: The Two Guys are punk as fuck.

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And the SQ2 remake you worked on looks perfectly alright to me.

 

I just want to point out that I didn't work on that. The SQ game I primarily worked on was Vohaul Strikes Back. That said, I do agree that the SQ2 remake was good, but I'm also glad the Guys aren't going with 320x200 VGA. Love the nostalgia trip, but I'm not interested in them becoming The Two Guys from Las Vegas, if you catch my drift.

 

I dunno... I think a major problem is that us backers are just not qualified. We may have some pretty nifty ideas about what we want that may sound cooler than sliced bread, but are catastrophic when implemented. Moebius' inventory handling is indeed a prime example. So I just kinda prefer trusting the Guys with this. And I'm sure they've been following the criticism that the other Kickstarter adventure games have received.

 

I'm probably on the fence here because I honestly think the whole Kickstarter thing can get awfully dramatic really quickly. I'm tired of seeing people in the comments who probably backed with, like, $15 go "So where is my game? I have but lost all faith in you and I am off to slit my wrists while I listen to Tokio Hotel" when I have friends here who've pitched in with 5K or 10K are able to shut the heck up and quietly respect that there's a process going on and that the Guys may just be more qualified than they are.

 

And the above rant isn't meant to silence any debate whatsoever. It's probably just my final two cents on the topic unless something spectacular happens. But again, I want it to be known that I have complete confidence in the Guys. And, crowdfunding be damned, I've come to think that I really don't want to play a fangame. Or want my experience spoiled. So, I suppose backer involvement is not something I miss that much and that we might just have to agree to disagree on that count  :)

 

EDIT: And then, while I was busy trying to wrap "Fuck this" up in diplomacy, Troels made some excellent points about why we may want to consider trusting Scott and Mark a bit more than the average "adventure game lover".

Edited by Frede

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Personally I can say, that the little we have seen of the game, even the proto alpha, demo thingy, does look very promising to me. There is potentially a great game there, so there's no red flags for me as far the content or the looks of the game goes. And I do guess I've been vocal enough about the one matter which worries me to most about this lenghty development, so I have no reason to go there here.

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Well said. And I think we can all agree the development has been too lengthy. Even several members of the team itself have stated that. So I personally don't think any of us should go there. It's being taken care of, so it's kind of a dead horse...

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If I say „This location looks empty and boring“, then that has nothing to do with the art style (unless empty and boring was a deliberate aesthetic choice - I sincerely hope not!)

 

Ok, let's go through the art and maybe I can allay some of your art-related fears...

The main thing we've had to look at is the demo, as that's the thing that has been playable, but I'll go through some of the other screenshots we've seen as well.

 

I think for comparison, it's fair to see what the Space Quest games looked like, in terms of emptiness/boringness (and if you didn't enjoy or like

the SQ games, then SV probably isn't going to be your sort of game!), also bearing in mind the different graphic resolutions, etc.

 

I also think it's important to compare locations as like-for-like... spaceships compared to spaceships, corridors to corridors, 

deserts compared to deserts, etc.

 

Ok, so the demo... first location:

door.jpg

 

The nearest thing I found in SQ was in SQ5 with some kind of door immediately in front of you:

 

sq5.jpg

 

Next screen:

nuzuorun.jpg

 

An equivalent might be something like this from SQ4, where it's just a general corridor type of thing:

 

449445-space-quest-iv-roger-wilco-and-th

 

(Bearing in mind that SV is also meant to have some kind of character in the ship that wasn't included in the demo

who might be in one of these rooms...)

 

Next:

smokevent.jpg

We've got a tunnel with a cart and a vent that can open and steam...

compared to something like this, from SQ2:

 

79+Chased+by+Robot.JPG

 

And we have the close-up of the cart too:

 

smokeclose.jpg

Which is similar to close-ups in SQ4:

 

17661-space-quest-iv-roger-wilco-and-the

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Next:

roommove.jpg

 

As a room it has quite a lot going on, there is the animation of the crate thing moving backwards with the lights,

a washing line, the sleeping guy, the table full of stuff... bearing in mind it's a storage room rather than a regular room.

 

The equivalent might be something like this from SQ4, simple room with a table, door thing, etc.:

 

Space%20Quest%204%20-%20Roger%20Wilco%20

 

This is one of my favorite screens and it has a lot of detail in it:

 

d4d92df1f7faca83148faba6a20e0d5e_large.j

 

It's a more detailed version of something like this from SQ4:

 

sq4.jpg

 

Next, a corridor joining screen thing:

 

812a0bea8e68ac6436cef443daf5b79d_large.j

 

So something on a ship with different doors would be this from SQ1:

 

scrn009.jpg

 

This is another of my favorite screens, the lab:

 

spacevenlab.jpg

In which there are several animations going on, the lights in the center and left, the beasties in the tanks, the bubbles, and

the tanks opening...

 

9btjs.gif

 

There are some scenes in the SQ games with bits of labs, but they tend to be rooms with a lab, shuttle,

all different things put into one room, rather than a specialist specimen lab like this seems to be....

 

And that's the demo... 

So to me, going like-for-like, SV is on track to being in the same vein as the SQ games,

and surpasses them in some cases like with the lab and the close-up scene of the magazine/drill-bits/etc.

 

I don't think they're particularly empty in comparison to the SQ games, which in some cases are emptier,

partially due to graphic limitations if we're talking SQ1-2.

 

I think you also have to bear in mind that the demo is set on a spaceship with corridors, so there aren't

going to be many rugs, potted plants, etc. in corridors, just as there weren't in the SQ games.

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Let's see what else they've shown us from the ship that's not in the demo...

Some kind of canteen, with seats, a drinks machine, a menu and shuttered serving thing:

 

0dd2b941782de2f5a318594f87be35bc_large.j

 

Equivalent with drinks machine and seats from SQ6:

 

SQ6-Ending.png

 

Some kind of elevator with water in it:

 

c2b848ac8b2623ef9e24c90f45ca91e9_large.j

 

SQ6 elevator thing:

 

SQ6-Narration.png

 

Some kinda missile-loading or maybe trash-ejecting things with lights, etc.:

 

fcad5c6f9fcec92a68fd92994682a3e4_large.j

(Can't find a real equivalent to this in the SQ games at the moment...)

 

Toilets! I remember this was released ages ago, so may have changed by now:

 

de987dc1bc9c83158fc914ebeabb796e_large.j

(Again, can't find a direct equiv in the SQ games...)

 

The infamous pipes room:

 

pipes.jpg

(I guess any corridor from the SQ games would count as an equivalent...)

 

Another ship scene (not sure if it's a cutscene though):

 

rooteracarm.jpg

 

I assume this is part of the sewer-system of the ship:

 

7f7cfbf8fa0f13737c1855f27e43c8ea_large.j

 

Equivalent might be something like this location from SQ4 with steps/ladders, etc.:

 

qq5.jpg?w=584&h=228

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And finally, a few non-ship shots they've let us see...

Desert planet:

 

9e84249476b0dd322de2de6742c858a4_large.j

 

Equiv from SQ4:

 

est1.jpg

 

Inside something alien-looking:

 

cf9359ede0d16abae482b7b0c8f22f31_large.j

 

Equiv from SQ6:

 

1d46.gif

 

Landing place:

 

eac113006cc60b8834e7ef4f3526fd5d_large.j

 

Equiv from SQ6:

 

Shuttlebay.gif

 

Don't know if this is a cutscene or not, but space vehicle:

 

car.jpg

 

 

One thing I noticed while doing this -- with a lot of the shots in SV, the perspective is closer to Ace than the SQ shots are to Roger,

i.e. the "camera" is further away from Roger in SQ... that will most likely mean there are more rooms in SV, as you can't

fit as much of an area in one screen.

 

It looks like the first spaceship thing is going to be bigger than most SQ areas... there are already around 14 screens for it and

we haven't seen every part of the ship yet (unless we're seeing inside multiple ships in some of the shots).

 

I think another big thing to mention is that we haven't seen any of the other characters placed within the game yet,

which will go a long way to making it feel populated and lived in as a world.

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Hush! Don't silence the debate!  ;) I can be an asshole if it's just a good-natured jab, right?

 

Seriously, kudos for doing your research. And, unintentionally, proving why everyone really ought to take a deep breath, count to ten and just trust the Two Guys basically because they're the Two Guys.

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Yeah, the artwork for SpaceVenture does look pretty damn nice. I love how it reminds me of the art from first 4 SQ games, but in much higher resolution and quality. The character art is top notch as well and presonally I do think SV looks much nicer than some other KS funded adventures with similar budgets. Hell, I'd say it won't crumble down in shame in comparision to bigger budget titles with much bigger art crews.

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One thing I noticed while doing this -- with a lot of the shots in SV, the perspective is closer to Ace than the SQ shots are to Roger,

i.e. the "camera" is further away from Roger in SQ... that will most likely mean there are more rooms in SV, as you can't

fit as much of an area in one screen.

 

Well, also there are a lot more pans (and a few zooms) than happen in SQ. I think there are only a few of those in the SQ series and they are happening a lot more in this game (mainly because it's easier to move the camera around the scene rather than have to re-draw the room for a different perspective)

 

It looks like the first spaceship thing is going to be bigger than most SQ areas... there are already around 14 screens for it and

we haven't seen every part of the ship yet (unless we're seeing inside multiple ships in some of the shots).

 That's certainly true. It reminds me a lot of the DeepShip 86 in terms of rooms.

 

I think another big thing to mention is that we haven't seen any of the other characters placed within the game yet,

which will go a long way to making it feel populated and lived in as a world.

Something you may not have picked up on in the demo is that the Nostrodomus (the ship Ace boards) is being abandoned due to some threat that Ace must confront (as seen at the end of the demo). (We also saw the Nostrodomus explode due to this threat in a recent KS update). So while it may not be flooded with people in that part of the game, there are certainly people you will bump into later on (remember, several of the KS rewards involved putting backers in game so we'll see a few familiar faces at least).

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if you didn't enjoy or like

the SQ games, then SV probably isn't going to be your sort of game!

Uh, that's kinda strange to assume I didn't like them.

 

Anyway, just my two cents about the screenshots you posted:

 

Screen 1:

Not a particularly good comparison, as there's a lot to do in the SQ5 screen (which is obvious, since you'll be staring at that screen a lot), while there's next to nothing to do in the SV screen.

 

SQ5:

- talk to Flo

- talk to Droole

- initiate self destruct-sequence

- push these other two buttons that I forgot what they do in the game

 

SV:

- click on the door repeatedly in the vain hope that your desperate clicking will eventually be registered by the game

 

Screen 2:

In terms of emptiness/boredom, they're pretty much the same. Personally, I prefer the SQ4 screen, at least that one doesn't involve swiping puzzles. Same thing goes for the close-up of the cart

 

Didn't care much for the desk close-up either. All these items could have been scattered around the station, but instead, it was all crammed into a single location. I dunno, it just feels lazy and fan-servicey. Same goes for having Roger Wilco having a not so subtle cameo this early in the game. Takes all the potential for "Where's Waldo?"-fun right out.

 

I haven't changed my opinion on the pipe puzzle/room. It neither looks interesting, nor does the kind of puzzling you could possibly do in this room seem particularly appealing. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

Most of the other locations, I've never seen before, so thanks for that! Some of them actually look kind of neat. The toilets, whether intentionally or not, are a work of genius. What a nightmare vision to have to sit on one of those, in plain sight of the other "occupants".

 

Some kinda missile-loading or maybe trash-ejecting things with lights, etc.:

Seem more like escape pods to me.

 

I assume this is part of the sewer-system of the ship:

Actually, this one reminds me of one of the locations in Westwood's Blade Runner game.

 

mqdefault.jpg

 

If you won't be able to push anybody into the toxic brew in the finished game, then uninstall immediately, 0/10 - Would not back again & reported to Kickstarter support for scamming! :angry:

 

 

The character art is top notch

 

I agree with that, even though we haven't seen much of it. I was also surprised by the level of quality of Ace's animations in the Demo

 

 

Something you may not have picked up on in the demo is that the Nostrodomus (the ship Ace boards) is being abandoned due to some threat that Ace must confront (as seen at the end of the demo).

If the place is being deserted, why not add some little details into the environment that would actually suggest that people fled this place in a hurry?

 

While we're at it, why not change the name of the ship to Nostrodoomus for that little extra bit of foreboding?

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You do realise Fronzel that you are comparing a game demo, that wasn't even on the proper alpha stage to finished games? There was a huge lack of pretty much everything in the small snippet we got way back of SpaceVenture, I wouldn't start drawing any comparisions about it yet.

Sure, it's okay point out if something is bugging you, but as of now we really can't say how much stuff there will be on the finished version of the game based on the proto demo we got. 

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I'm totally aware of that. However, Chris Pope stated in his demo playthrough video that they're primarily concerned with bugfixing and that most of the stuff seen in the Demo (which you rather adequately describe as "a huge lack of pretty much everything") will stay the same. Which is why it's important to point out that the Demo (which I would presume to be the opening part of the game) wasn't particularly exciting for a number of reasons. Frankly, if players get bored to tears by a opening scene that doesn't do too good a job at sucking you into the game, it won't bode well for the rest of the game.

 

Like I said, I know it's unfinished, but due to the recent announcement that they're about to take things to the next level by having in-game dialogue recorded, I felt compelled to get my concerns off my chest before it's "too late".

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That's certainly true. It reminds me a lot of the DeepShip 86 in terms of rooms.

 

Thanks for all the info, that sounds great, as Deepship is one of my favorite SQ locations!

 

Anyway, just my two cents about the screenshots you posted...

 

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all turns out in the end, can't wait!

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I'm totally aware of that. However, Chris Pope stated in his demo playthrough video that they're primarily concerned with bugfixing and that most of the stuff seen in the Demo (which you rather adequately describe as "a huge lack of pretty much everything") will stay the same. Which is why it's important to point out that the Demo (which I would presume to be the opening part of the game) wasn't particularly exciting for a number of reasons. Frankly, if players get bored to tears by a opening scene that doesn't do too good a job at sucking you into the game, it won't bode well for the rest of the game.

 

Like I said, I know it's unfinished, but due to the recent announcement that they're about to take things to the next level by having in-game dialogue recorded, I felt compelled to get my concerns off my chest before it's "too late".

Considering that the demo lacked most of the writing as well, I doubt fixing bugs is the only thing they focus on. Technically speaking there was huge amount of bugs in the proto, so obvously everything that has to do with playability and stability need to be take care of, so those were propably priorised for some time, but let's not forget that the demo we got is already, what almost year old?  It's unliely the whole time has been spent on doing those bug fixes.

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You're completely right, tomimt! Which is why it would be cool if TGA could, for example, release an updated Alpha Demo, as that would showcase the fruits of that labor. After all, the Space Pope himself stated in the playthrough video (which was released some 8 months ago) that they'd made some substantial improvements and that they'd release updated demos further down the road.

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