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Fronzel Neekburm

Something that DOES worry me...

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The new screenshot looks cool. If there are going to be weak areas in this game, I don't think art is going to be one of them.

 

Not much in the latest update. At least from the previous update we now have a better idea, though, of the amount of work left.

 

They know what the hell they're doing; it's funny how everyone's turned into armchair game-designers over the years. I mean, I thought my armchair quarterback Uncle was bad, shouting at the players on the television when they mangle their latest sports games, but people these days in the video gaming world have taken it to an art form.

 

They know what they're doing...

 

 

Bt

Hmm, I don't like this way of dismissing criticism. Why are opinions someone doesn't agree with or doesn't want to see given negative connotations through the use of terms like "armchair quarterbacking"? Telling someone, essentially, "Trust them. They know what they're doing and know better than you," is a poor way of addressing criticism. It's like telling someone, "keep your strong opinions to yourself, unless you're offering praise."

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Opinions are fine, but lots of the ones stated have reeked of "This is not how you make an adventure game...", even going so far as to suggest that massive delays would never have happened had this been Sierra (it would've, and did, according to Corey Cole). I don't like opinions that consist of manipulative bullshit in the guise of facts, which is what the latter certainly was.

 

I think all that Blackthorne is pointing out is that many of us just aren't qualified to tell the Guys how to deal with the delays. If they conclude they have to work on it till 2015, you can bet that decision has not been taken lightly. And I think it's a legit point to make in this case.

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Hmm, I don't like this way of dismissing criticism.

 
Hmm, I don't like this way of criticizing the dismissing of criticism.
If someone wants to dismiss criticism, I think we should let them.
 
Then again, maybe you are within your rights to criticize any dismissal of criticism as you see fit.
Maybe I am in the wrong, with my criticism of your criticism of criticism dismissal.
 
Something to think about.

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We all know this project hasn't gone as smoothly it could have, even the guys seem to be willing to admit that. But luckily enough they do seem to have good reigns over the budget, so they still are very likely to be able to pull this one through.

 

I do understand why people feel like they do. This KS is already 2 years old and it has been admitted that the game isn't as far as they'd hoped. That alone is enough to make people worry about the status of the project.

 

Projects like these are the first time for many people to see what happens in a software project. They are propably the ones who either get disheartened the most. Those people who have been a part of a software might have their own strong opinions how things should be done, which can reflect as harsh sounding critizism.

 

It isn't helpful to keep chanting "take your time" either, as the realities are that time and money are real factors here. This isn't Star Citizen with seemingly infinite stream of money.

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The suggestion in Blackthorne's somewhat disappointing comments (which I quoted above) is that people criticizing in-progress work or the apparent direction of in-progress shouldn't dare to think they know better than the designers and should instead just have faith.

 

No, I don't like that way of dismissing criticism. Not one bit.

 

Opinions related to game environments or scenes, which I believe was what some of the original comments in this thread were about, are subjective. But it's still possible to respond to those criticisms in a substantive way, as other posters here demonstrated. Those kinds of substantive responses are better than just branding critics with negative terms. It's like calling someone a "hater" and brushing them off when they disagree, without really addressing their points.

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We're delving into the irony circle of doom, here, but it does seem (as JimmyTwoBucks amusingly put it) as if people defending the game makers are being accused of dismissing criticism as a way of blindly dismissing their criticism of the criticism.

 

And, again, the internet sustains its heroic level of lack of self-awareness and the cycle continues.

 

I do believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion. In some circumstances expert opinion (i.e. those with professional experience of this or similar projects) is preferable in arriving at a judgemet; in others, fan opinion (i.e. those with expertise in playing and enjoying finished products) is preferable. And sometimes, just plain old ranting can expose deeper issues.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with criticising the devs for delays, or for the direction the game is going in; but when it's built on faulty premises - or does not appear to take into account other factors - people should enter into a debate and explain why they might be wrong.

 

Of course, it's always easy to see more substantive points when you agree with someone. Everyone who disagrees must be a "hater", or must simply be "dismissing criticism".

 

I'm all for people disagreeing with people who disagree with people who disagree. But let's lose the faux outrage about the faux outrage about the faux outrage.

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The suggestion in Blackthorne's somewhat disappointing comments (which I quoted above) is that people criticizing in-progress work or the apparent direction of in-progress shouldn't dare to think they know better than the designers and should instead just have faith.

 

No, I don't like that way of dismissing criticism. Not one bit.

 

Opinions related to game environments or scenes, which I believe was what some of the original comments in this thread were about, are subjective. But it's still possible to respond to those criticisms in a substantive way, as other posters here demonstrated. Those kinds of substantive responses are better than just branding critics with negative terms. It's like calling someone a "hater" and brushing them off when they disagree, without really addressing their points.

Absolutely you can criticize all you want; you can also expect criticism of you criticism from time to time.  There are certainly people with good and helpful criticism out there and some with advice that rivals "duck and cover" from the 50s.  Anyone should feel free to say what they feel; just know that there is the absolute possibility that your opinion, critisicm and suggestions may be absolutely, entirely and unequivocally wrong.

 

 

Bt

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Hey guys,

 

Long-time SQ fan (I remember writing upset letters to Sierra management when the adventure branch was closed down), but a recent nostalgia binge has brought me back into the loop...

 

Couple things I wanted to say.

 

First of all, I love the overall positive vibe of this community. People like Fronzel Neekburm aside (who really smells like another, much worse classic-gaming site I visited for a while), there is an incredibly mature, fun, mutually supportive, and genuinely funny vibe in this group. The Space Quest Historian podcasts are stellar, and I just got around to all of the fantastic new fan content: the last fan games I'd played were the AGI classics, back when I made my own AGI games as a teenager, and it was incredible to discover the 2012-2013 revival.

 

Second, SpaceVenture looks great. I think we can all agree, if we're honest with ourselves, that the Two Guys have a checkered history in gaming, and I don't think they can be blindly trusted to produce a perfect product. However, I think they have NEVER delivered a perfect product, but they HAVE successfully given so many things over the years (specifically the years 1986-1995) that there's no reason to riot over potential misuse of swiping puzzles or something otherwise unrelated to the core of the game. Nobody wants to make a good game more than these two guys, who have been forced out of the industry twice as long as they were in it. I have no doubt that the game will be funny, fun, charming, and full of half-finished thoughts: just like every Space Quest game. It will be good, swiping puzzles or no.

 

Third, there's a lot of discussion about how 3-4 are the best SQ games. Totally disagree, and I don't get why 1 is always written off. SQ 1, both EGA and VGA, are easily my favourites in the series. The humour wasn't all there yet, but it's such a tight, exciting, and coherent trip, it's probably ironically the best-designed of the series. And of course, Kerona is probably the best planet of the entire series, providing a classic yet generic atmosphere and a nice mix of the wild and the civilized. 3-4 were good for their self-referential fourth-wall humour and oddball plots/locations, but nobody's gonna call The Sarien Encounter "their worst work" while my Internet still works!!

 

P.S. Was funny to see how nice this community was to Paul Trowe even when he was at his weirdest. Good people.

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People like Fronzel Neekburm aside (who really smells like another, much worse classic-gaming site I visited for a while), there is an incredibly mature, fun, mutually supportive, and genuinely funny vibe in this group.

I think I know the one you're talking about. Didn't the mods over there grace your username with a "village idiot" tag?

 

butthurt.png

 

No need to take your frustration out on me.

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Drama.gif

 

(Seriously, there was a time here where people here got along and didn't bring up politics and/or shit from the past at every given juncture. Play nice, guys.)

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(Seriously, there was a time here where people here got along and didn't bring up politics and/or shit from the past at every given juncture. Play nice, guys.)

Ah, those were the good old days, in the brief time after the launch of VSB and before the Two Guys Kickstarter. Too bad random political thing had to happen.

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Absolutely you can criticize all you want; you can also expect criticism of you criticism from time to time. There are certainly people with good and helpful criticism out there and some with advice that rivals "duck and cover" from the 50s. Anyone should feel free to say what they feel; just know that there is the absolute possibility that your opinion, critisicm and suggestions may be absolutely, entirely and unequivocally wrong.

 

 

Bt

Labeling criticism as good/constructive VS. "ranting" is often just a way to apply loaded terms to opinions you either agree or disagree with. And it is also often used as a way to try to shut up people. We've probably all seen online forums where moderators use the "not constructive enough" excuse when warning critics. Should criticism only be taken seriously if it's offered dispassionately or expressed with sufficient kissing up and/or hedging, so as to try to avoid upsetting fans and developers? If the feedback doesn't come with many specifics, press the person to explain him/herself.

 

People in this thread responded to the original concerns with evidence refuting the original posts. That is a much better way of addressing criticism than the disappointing comments by Blackhthorne I quoted earlier.

 

As I've said, I believe the SpaceVenture scenes we've seen so far look quite nice. But I can understand the concerns raised at the beginning of this thread. Will be interesting to see the project at a more complete stage.

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Drama.gif

 

(Seriously, there was a time here where people here got along and didn't bring up politics and/or shit from the past at every given juncture. Play nice, guys.)

Well it kinda is a result of SV taking a lot longer than expected. It's not like we have a game to discuss about here. Unless we want to just randomly speculate about things on the proto demo, which really didn't give us THAT much to speculate about.

 

Or then again we could just stop posting here until the game is released, but that could end up killing even the smallest buzz SV had going for it.

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Meh. There's a difference between talking about SpaceVenture and bringing up political correctness and feminism all the time. Or going "Wow, this guy sucks!" in your first post. And I was mainly referring to those.

 

No one is saying "don't talk about SpaceVenture" as far as I can tell. But several of us are asking that those who are critical of the game consider listening to what the development team representatives here might have to say before going "Yes, but..."

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It's a matter of time before someone posts a biblical quote.

"What shall it profit a man if he should gain $539.767 on Kickstarter and lose his own soul?"

Mark 8:36

 

Sooo... with the November 30th release looming, can we expect to get our hands on a playable beta build any time soon?

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