Political correctness and feminism

[Fronzel Neekburm]

Troels, you're just mad that this one doesn't involve a reference to necrophilia! :P

 

Collector, maybe spread around this one instead. Gets the point across without anyone having to endure the smell of scrotum sweat:

 

[Frede]

Am I a bad person if I laughed? Without relinquishing, of course.

[Troels Pleimert]

Nope, still not funny. This just implies that women stick their fingers in their ears and go "la-la-la-la" when faced with counterarguments. It's still misogynistic as all hell.

 

Also, some of those "strong female characters" listed are just bad male fantasy stereotypes.

[Fronzel Neekburm]

This just implies that women stick their fingers in their ears and go "la-la-la-la" when faced with counterarguments.

Problem is, this comic is NOT about women!

 

And considering that Sarkeesian habitually deactivates the comment section to her videos, I think this is actually a pretty legit observation. Only that she doesn't need to stick her fingers in her ears, she can use $100 bills instead.

[Datadog]

This just implies that women stick their fingers in their ears and go "la-la-la-la" when faced with counterarguments.

Yeah, this is true with some, but definitely not all. The comic could probably better represent that if at least one of the people listing off names was a woman. But I don't think it's a gaming or gender-related issue at all. I know lots of friends who, for example, talk on end about how bad-ass their FemShep or Warcraft character is. And when I go to Cons, there's no shortage of women dressed up in "Sailor Moon" or "Soul Caliber"-style costumes. Everybody has their own idea of what they admire in a character, and there's always a handful of very loud people who want to make an issue out of it just as much as there's people who want to celebrate it.

[Fronzel Neekburm]

The comic could probably better represent that if at least one of the people listing off names was a woman.

As far as I'm concerned, they could just as well replace the woman in the first and last panel with a guy and the point would still stand. This comic isn't about women, it's about people who talk smack about video games without knowing the first thing about them (or even caring about them).

[Frede]

That makes no sense. If that was the true intent behind the comic, why not go with good old "There's too much violence in video games" instead? No, this comic strip is very much about women, and the "Stop raping me!"-punchline is useless and offensive anyway you slice it.

 

Games have a problem as long as women are depicted like this. I love that game, but the female characters and their unprotected silicone protuberances flopping around while they punch the hell out of their opponents make me want to vomit. I mean, seriously. Who "dresses" like that for a fighting tournament?! I loathe them to the extent where I wish there was a "No female characters on the ladder"-cheat code. To my knowledge, ironically, I don't believe this game has caused controversy in this department.

 

There are games out there with cool female characters, but there are also games whose sole purpose with including female characters is to give players a hard-on. And that's stupid. Especially because you'd be hard pressed to find games where the sole purpose of a male character is to be sexy.

[drdrslashvohaul]

There's also the issue that if 1,000,000 video games have been made, and 1% have strong female leads, one should be able to find 10,000 examples. Doesn't mean there isn't a gross imbalance.

[drdrslashvohaul]

Problem is, this comic is NOT about women!

 

And considering that Sarkeesian habitually deactivates the comment section to her videos, I think this is actually a pretty legit observation. Only that she doesn't need to stick her fingers in her ears, she can use $100 bills instead.

The hilarious thing is, though, Sarkeesian starts each video with "I still like video games, I just find some of these things problematic. Yes, you'll find examples that go against these tropes, but these tropes are still far more common than the exceptions - that's what makes them tropes." And she often takes time to praise the games that she thinks offer a great counter-balance.

 

The people who don't like her, though, immediately ignore the caveats - and crucially ignore what she's trying to do - to jump straight on the attack.

 

I don't find all of her arguments convincing, and I do think (despite the inevitable shit she would get/has got) that there should be comments on her videos. But if you're going to attack her, at least try to debate her on her own terms rather than on some weird fantasy of what art critique and feminism are.

[Blackthorne]

This is the internet.  Sadly, people are going to debate you on their terms, which usually come from beyond the seventh level of hell - unlimited virtual depravity and doom are fun to touch because there's no "real" consequence to them.  People can be a shitchuggingdicklord on the internet, then sign off and still run down to the store and buy a Coke and whistle "Tubthumping" like nothing ever happened because, hey, it's the internet!

 

Which, of course, is a shitty way to behave.

 

 

Bt

[SteveHNo96]

 

 

 

 

Blazing Saddles (like The Producers) works because it sends up the racists - it uses racist language and images to show just how fucked up we are as a species, and how idiotic humanity is. It is a diatribe against racism, and this is why it works. It isn't politically correct, and is one of the reasons why I would also not consider myself as part of this caricature of "the PC police". I love things like South Park and Mel Brooks' works that attack our idiocy through exposing it in parody. If a piece of art, a computer game, a movie, or whatever else can do that and make a legitimate point, then it is doing exactly what all good art should do. If it's just using racist, sexist or generally stereotypical tropes as a lazy device to avoid story telling, then it's a damaging. It simply reinforces latent prejudice. That's why people like me ask people to have a quick think before they act. That's it. Critique is not censorship. And critique does not immediately lead to calls for certain thoughts to be banned.

 

I am well aware of the movie Blazing Saddles. However, Mel Brooks even said bluntly that he couldn't make the movie in 2014 because of the number of people who would get butthurt by it. I did a little research, actually because I am a devout metalhead and found several things that explain pretty much exactly why.

 

 

You do realise the superb irony that you're doing EXACTLY this by using the term "political correctness", don't you? I think the people who have made rational arguments in this thread have moved beyond name-calling, and explained why something might be construed as offensive.

 

Do you understand the main problem with the idea that something may be offensive so we have to ban it? Books were burned in Germany in the 1930s that were offensive, do I dare to state what they moved on to?

 

 

Indeed. But the problem is we don't have equality, do we? And while we don't, those people who have disproportionately more power need to be a little mindful of how they act and think. It won't be solved over night, but it will be solved if, as a species, we learn to respect difference. Equality isn't about treating everyone the same - it's about giving everyone equality of opportunity by ensuring that people can be who they want to be without fear of insults, denial of opportunity and outright discrimination.

By allowing the same people to use the same bully tactics that are considered no-nos in Caucasian culture? Let me give you a great example and he's not even a minority. Eminem. I can't even quote a song lyric that he released in October of 2013, look it up under the term "rap God". Now compare those to the comments that Phil from Duck Dynasty made and tell me what is more egregious. One reason I believe more in the free market is that by doing this, we have more equality.

 

 

 

South Park? Family Guy? Modern Family? Will and Grace? Coupling (UK version)? The Office? Men Behaving Badly (UK)?

South Park and Family Guy are nothing BUT fart jokes and kicking a guy in the jimmy! You're proving my point. Will and Grace and Modern Family rely on the fact that one or more people being gay is automatically funny. The others I have not seen.

 

 

Two things happened. One, sitcoms were told that resting on lazy ethnic and gender tropes was unacceptable. (We had loads of shows cancelled here on the same basis). It took a few years for TV to work out what was and wasn't acceptable. And in the mean time, other types of show became popular, relegating the sitcom even lower. Things change. As a historian I don't believe in absolute progress, but I do believe we gain and lose in the process. Hopefully, it's a better world today for black lesbians than it was in 1975.

Yes, Black Lesbians can watch two guys eat chili, drop trou and fart for 30 minutes. That's much better than the slapstick comedy or showing the error of their ways like The Jeffersons.

 

Actually, one of the reasons for this entire change of mindset is very bleak. You are basically being told what to think by a man who practically destroyed the British economy. That sounds ridiculous. However, anyone who studies history knows it is true. In 1983, fifty media outlets controlled 90% of what you watch, listen to, or read. In 2012, that number is six. Comcast (who owns NBCUniversal, Focus Features and The New York Times, this one is very important), NewsCorp (who owns Fox, Wall Street Journal, and The New York Post), Disney (ABC, ESPN, Pixar, Miramax, and Marvel), Viacom (MTV, BET, CMT, Paramount), Time-Warner (CNN, HBO, DC Comics) and CBS (Showtime, The Smithsonian Channel, NFL.com)...

 

In 1992, a man named George Soros basically destroyed the British economy by speculating that the Pound couldn't hold its value in the international commodity markets and invested so much money against it that the Bank of England collapsed when it finally was unable to hold a minimum value.

 

Soros actually owns NBCUniversal / Comcast, he also is tied to ABC, the Washington Post, CNN, The New York Times, The Associated Press, etc., and has donated over $8 billion to keeping his monopoly alive through a fund called Open Society Foundations, which actually runs over 30 different news organizations. So basically, Soros is telling you what to think through several companies that he either owns a partial or complete share of. Lovely, isn't it?

 

Anyways, without boring you to death, basically any of the fringe agenda of liberals including the policies of Barack Obama all basically are met through the ideals of this guy, George Soros. that includes everything from blacks being infallible (we had to "understand" these people and they aren't thugs) after the L.A. Riots to the fringe agenda of gays or the man-stomping of some psycho bitch like Beatrice or Berta from Two and a Half Turds.

 

It's also why you hear the same crappy songs on the radio -- most of the radio stations belong to either Clear Channel, Cumulus, CBS Radio, or ABC Radio. 80% of stations in America have a playlist that matches exactly one of another station because it's cheaper for these companies to play "Mrs. Robinson" and pay Simon and Garfunkel the same rate they negotiated for in 1968 as opposed to letting the best new stuff come out.

 

"Freedom of choice is what you got. Freedom from choice is what you want". ~ Devo, 1980.

 

 

That said, your idea of "the four big B.S." can still fuck right off. Gareth said it absolutely right: You are clearly oblivious to how ironic you sound when you call us the "P.C. police" (a misnomer if ever there was one). If we're going to play that game, it should at least be "the five big B.S.".

 

Alright, I'll throw down. A lot of people in the left-wing use those terms if you oppose them on anything. If you go against the psycho feminist agenda, you're sexist (watch for this word to be thrown around a lot if Hillary gets elected), don't want gay marriage? Forget any actual reason you might have, you're a homophobe. That's why I call it the Big Four of B.S. -- because that's all it is. It's a tool used to control people, kinda like George Soros does. Nice, huh?

 

 

And I can't speak for Gareth or Frederik, but I definitely don't consider myself politically correct. I consider myself a humanist. But I am also a cynic and I think there is truth to Carlin's words that we will never attain our ideals. The peaceful world of Star Trek where everyone is united in peace with no money and a military hierarchy that somehow works will never happen. We're too far gone; we've already fucked it up for ourselves beyond repair -- there has to be a cataclysmic event where we nuke the site from orbit, final-scene-from-Fight-Club style, just like a drug addict has to hit rock bottom, before we're going to get anywhere.

 

I honestly believe that the world is always going to be screwed up. However, the problem we're having is we're creating too much of overcompensation. Think about it this way. 30 years ago if a teacher said something offensive, the parents went down, had a word with the teacher, the teacher apologized and tried not to do it again and all was right with the world. Today they call for the firing of these teachers. These people go too far. Simple as that.

 

If you want to be treated equally, you have to be made fun of equally. That means everyone gets a turn. What happens instead by some people is the "humor" is so macabre anymore that it loses its humor. It reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy" where the best movie of the year was called "Ass" and the best TV show was "Ow! My balls!". that's basically what "humor" has become.

 

oh and yes, I do see a lot of things in black and white. (not literally, I'm not color blind but a comment was made that I see everything in absolutes). Very much so. I am a certified Aspie so that whole "It's okay to treat this guy like crap because he's white" or "it's okay for a 60-plus year old woman to ogle an 8-year old boy's abs" doesn't wash with me. (The latter was on a sitcom called Sullivan and Son, JSYK). That is not liable to change. Sorry.

[drdrslashvohaul]

South Park and Family Guy are nothing BUT fart jokes and kicking a guy in the jimmy!

Was going to draft a full reply, but then I saw this. You've clearly never watch South Park, or at the very least haven't seen it in the past 10 years. Possibly the best satire on TV at the moment. I'm a university lecturer and use it as a teaching aid. If you haven't seen it recently, I'd urge you to do so. If you have and still think it's fart jokes, then it's clearly gone straight over your head.

 

I'm not asking for stuff to be banned, either, which undermines that point you made.

 

So... meh. Boring argument is becoming even more boring. Time to bow out.

[Dat Engineer]

Boy, with a thread topic like "Political correctness and feminism", one can hardly expect anything less than the greatest of forum theatrics - and this thread has certainly delivered. After all of the words and pages, what have we really learned here after walking away? I certainly haven't gleaned anything of value, and I read every post. :mellow: Again, I find myself agreeing with Drslashvohaul the most.

[PurpleTentacle]

I just came back here and noticed that I'm listed as having started this thread. I didn't create this thread. I guess that's because it was broken off from another thread?

 

Anyway, there has been a lot of talk recently about corruption in gaming journalism and how people pointing out the corruption are being accused by politically correct gender police of hating women or something. The "sexist!" smear is getting thrown around a lot by people who aren't at all happy about opposition to their political ideology.

 

I was pleased to see one of my long-time heroes, Christina Hoff Sommers, step into the fray and post this excellent video:

http://youtu.be/9MxqSwzFy5w

 

Her video deserves to be forwarded far and wide.

 

Sommers' video went viral and struck a chord with gamers who appreciate her bringing common sense and facts into the discussion. The politically correct set went into a hair-pulling tizzy over her video, attacking her personally and creating laughably desperate auto-tune song responses. But Sommers should regard their freak-out over her video as a sign that she succeeded. Politically correct warriors may have influence and power as a result of institutionalizing their agenda, whether through "cultural studies" academia, media or government entities, but they don't have common sense or the truth. As people like Sommers show, truth and common sense will win out.

 

It is kind of ironic to see, at a Space Quest forum, of all places, so much concern over what might be deemed politically incorrect. Sad commentary on where we're at.

 

P.S.- Someone asked about the picture next to my name. It's someone I learned about through Al Lowe's twitter feed. I thought the guy described on the tombstone sounded awesome, so I decided to use a picture of him: https://twitter.com/allowe/status/275723604199620609

[PurpleTentacle]

This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

Well, the comic makes an excellent point. And the fact that it is true is sad, frankly. If that's the "stupidest thing" that someone's ever seen, then they obviously haven't read the work of Leigh "gamers are dead and anyone who opposes me is a misogynist" Alexander.

 

Reminds me of something a well-known female gamer posted on Twitter:

"How massively egotistical do you need to be in order to believe your gender is the only reason you're getting criticism?"

 

Indeed, we see the "sexism" charge leveled at people who choose not to worship in the political correctness cult. But I think the smears are more a discrediting tactic rather than primarily the result of massive egos. That's not to say, though, that big egos don't come into play. Here's influential feminist and "journalist"/self-described powerful megaphone Leigh Alexander threatening a young developer she deems to have strayed from politically correct dogma:

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/832/340/fd0.png

[PurpleTentacle]

 

Which, of course, is a shitty way to behave.

 

 

Bt

Blackthorne, the behavior of many influential, so-called professional gaming "journalists" has been, in response to those who question the "games are sexist!" message, outrageous, vicious and sometimes libelous. That's where I think more focus should be put, not on some anonymous YouTube commenters. Shouldn't professional journalists be held to a higher standard?

 

But if you're going to attack her, at least try to debate her on her own terms rather than on some weird fantasy of what art critique and feminism are.

There have been plenty of people who have criticized her methods and conclusions. Honestly, I don't think she deserves much attention. This is someone who is complaining about the "sexism" in Donkey Kong and Super Mario Bros. In a sane world, you would politely say to someone like that, "ok, thanks," and then move on. The implication is that games perpetuate sexism and other bad things and need to change. But there is zero evidence that games do any of that.

 

Feminists want to pathologize being male. So what if some games show jiggly tits and have lots of violent battles? If you don't like it, don't play it. Many guys like boobs and scantily clad women with porn star-like bodies. Deal with it. Sadly, these feminists don't just want more games that appeal to demographics other than "core" gamers (and there are plenty of games like that); they want to do away with male-centric titles and remove content that THEY don't like. And they will use various institutions to coerce and smear and intimidate to ensure that they are not opposed. As for that Anita person? Eh. It's just one part of the larger picture. Luckily, these feminists DO NOT speak for most women, just as the "LGBQQTIDJDJXNblahblah" PC activists do not speak for all gay people.

 

It's not a crime to be male and to like things that guys like.

[MusicallyInspired]

I saw that video of Sommers' a little while back. I was quite impressed.

[Dat Engineer]

Feminists want to pathologize being male. So what if some games show jiggly tits and have lots of violent battles? If you don't like it, don't play it. Many guys like boobs and scantily clad women with porn star-like bodies. Deal with it. Sadly, these feminists don't just want more games that appeal to demographics other than "core" gamers (and there are plenty of games like that); they want to do away with male-centric titles and remove content that THEY don't like. And they will use various institutions to coerce and smear and intimidate to ensure that they are not opposed. As for that Anita person? Eh. It's just one part of the larger picture. Luckily, these feminists DO NOT speak for most women, just as the "LGBQQTIDJDJXNblahblah" PC activists do not speak for all gay people.

 

It's not a crime to be male and to like things that guys like.

I go into this post fully realizing that my reaction may be disproportionate indeed, but the above quote is such a blatant strawman that honestly I am no longer surprised this thread has become as drawn out as it is.

 

In the same breath you claim that feminists do not speak for most women while also making the blanket statement "feminists want to pathologize being male", completely missing the point that actual feminism represents equality for the sexes and not some totalitarian matriarchy where everything male is forbidden. You might rightfully have a beef with individual journalists and YouTube pundits that use a hot-button issue to get views/hits/ad revenue, etc., but to use your disagreement as a sweeping generalization of everything the world of feminism represents, as well as to dismiss any notion of maybe toning down the blatant cheesecake factor in the gaming industry, misses the forest for the trees.

[PurpleTentacle]

I see what you're saying, Dat. I'm doing all these comments from my iPhone, and it's hard to sometimes be as precise and thorough as I would like. When I speak of feminists, I am talking about what the word "feminist" has come to mean: grievance-mongering and, all too often, misandry. A lot of what I see as problematic is in what's called "third-wave" feminism. I don't see today's feminism as truly being about equality.

 

How about issues of female genital mutilation? Family "honor" killings? Sex-selective abortions? (actually as evil as abortion for almost any reason, for that matter) Child brides? There are serious issues related to women's and girls' rights worldwide. Certainly women often face unique and horrible discrimination and often barbaric treatment. Anyone who cares about equal rights and the well being of our fellow humans, regardless of sex, cares about these issues. These are real issues.

 

But this baloney about the supposed horrible scourge of sexist video games? Give me a break. And the Anita videos? You can't talk about those Anita S (sorry, don't know her last name) videos without talking about the all-out push by so many gaming news sites to promote her and the message.

 

IMO it's not the Anita videos, in and of themselves, that people object to; it's the nonstop forcing down our throats of all this PC nonsense and the pimping of her videos by all these gaming sites. And it's the smearing of anyone who disagrees that people also are sick of.

 

My brother was a semi-pro skateboarder, and I saw the "skateboarding is not a crime" line a lot. That's what I was referencing when I said being male is not a crime. Like skateboarding was, natural guy-ish behavior (though of course not everyone is the same) is being portrayed as something bad or as something that needs correcting. Well, like skaters said, "to hell with it, we are who we are and stop treating us like criminals," I say more men (and those who support them) should push back and reject the political correctness/sensitivity cult.

 

People like Anita are professional grievance mongers. Maybe her tone isn't as strident as others', but she is part of the same feminist movement that thinks that, just because they are offended by or don't like a piece of entertainment, then you shouldn't be able to enjoy it either. They want to get rid of things that make them uncomfortable. I don't buy the, "oh, it's just a discussion to lead to richer characterization or more interesting plots." The hell it is. It is a dangerous, speech-squelching ideology treating groups differently based on the politically correct hierarchy.

 

All this reminds me of something I saw posted by a woman on Twitter in the "thank a feminist" thread:

[Thank a feminist if...]

... you can play video games in which 1000 men die and 1 chick has big tits and get called a misogynist #ThankAFeminist

[suejak]

When has Anita ever demanded that someone's speech be squelched, particularly with reference to a game's content?

 

Some people always say she "forces her opinion down your throat," but YouTube doesn't work that way. You have to go and look at the video yourself, of your own volition.

[Troels Pleimert]

What Suejak said.

[Fronzel Neekburm]

I do think we need to be able to have conversations about sex and race and so forth in video games. But we need to find a better way to do it because right now, rather than have an interesting discussion about social issues or culture, we just have finger-pointing and moralizing followed by outrage and defensiveness. It’s a disaster.

 

Taken from an excellent piece by Erik Kain. Thanks for summing up in a single paragraph what I couldn't convey in several pages worth of blather, Mr Kain!

 

PS: Could we please change the name of this topic? It's been bugging me since Day 1: Someone dissects a few random comments from an unrelated thread and slaps a rather vague and misleading name tag on it. I don't think this thread was ever about feminism in any way. It's not like people like me, PurpleTentacle, Steve or MusicallyInspired want to revoke women's right to vote or anything. The thing that people are decrying are the more bizarre offshoots of feminism (see Frede's post for a good example) and I think we need to find some other word for that.

 

PPS: And Happy Birthday to my old PC-thread adversary drdrslashvohaul! Have a great day! (And no, I'm not being sarcastic.)

[drdrslashvohaul]

Cheers Fronzel!

[Capn_Ascii]

Did you know this week is the 40th anniversary of the movie Blazing Saddles?

 

 

...suddenly, I feel very, very old. :(