AdventureGamers' forums' thoughts on the Two Guys' Kickstarter

[pcj]

Ouch, this thread is kind of harsh on the Kickstarter:

http://archive.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30914

(Archive, new thread at http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/viewthread/24/)

[Collector]

I would request that anyone that responds to that thread to please do so respectfully. We don't want to get the 2 Guys tread locked. There were a lot of negative posts in Jane's and Al's Kickstarter threads, too. Some people just want to whine about everything.

[pcj]

Sad to see it on a forum of people claiming to be "adventure gamers" though.

[Collector]

True. One thing about Adventure Gamers is that there are people of all ages there, from the 80s to teen. The kids tend to be less civil. The younger posters probably never even played any of the Space Quest games. I suspect that these are the ones that think that these pioneering developers should not be asking for money as they are obviously rich. :rolleyes:

[drdrslashvohaul]

There's also a lot of people acting very precious about their own favourites, worried that more startups means they won't get the game they want. A legit position to take, of course, if a little myopic. More adventure games from more people creates an industry.

 

Are you telling me, for instance, that the 2GFA game is going to be worse for having to compete to look, sound and play better than its competitors? Yeah, right. Variety and competition drive up quality.

[MusicallyInspired]

Right. And variety and competition is exactly what the scene has been missing for ages and why Telltale's games suck.

[Decaffeinated Jedi]

I find it interesting that a decent chunk of the criticism on message forums and comment sections has focused on the Two Guys' promise to include SQ-style death sequences in the game.

 

I get the impression that, for a lot of younger gamers, deaths are essentially "what's wrong" with old school adventure games -- especially Sierra games. Somewhere along the way, the LucasArts model seems to have prevailed, making games that feature character deaths seem "behind the times" or "unfair" in some sense. In many ways, the Space Quest series' emphasis on gruesomely hilarious (or hilariously gruesome) death scenes makes it emblematic for what a certain segment of the audience perceives as a "broken" gameplay mechanic.

 

Naturally, as SQ fans, we view these death scenes as part of the charm of the series. For some, though, I think the tendency is to lump character death right alongside unwinnable states as an unpardonable adventure gaming sin.

 

Just a largely irrelevant observation...

 

Jess

[MusicallyInspired]

Absolutely.

[Troels Pleimert]

I was going to "like" Jess' post, because it basically said it all, but the system says I've used up my "like" quota. ;)

 

All this said, I have to admit, I didn't think they were THAT harsh. I've skimmed through the thread, and while some were decidedly flamebait, I thought there were some very level-headed responses in there as well, addressing these issues from a calm and rational perspective, and not just from this community.

 

The fact that the Kickstarter has already reached the first $100.000 goal must mean there is a good chunk of interest, despite these perceived "failings."

[Collector]

Playing IA's SQ2VGA just a few months ago when it was released reminded me of what a huge part of the humor of the SQ games that comes from the many absurd death scenes. I know that I am not unique in purposely killing Roger over and over again just to find all of these crazy death scenes just for laughs. You can make a much better argument against dead ends than you can against death scenes.

 

I find it strange that these kids have such a visceral reaction to death scenes in an adventure game, but can turn around and jump right into an FPS or RPG where death is even more likely and have no problem with it.

[pcj]

(Split this off from the original topic)

 

I have no problem with death scenes, sure. That's part of the fun. Just don't make me save 10 times on every screen to avoid having to replay the entire game due to a senseless death. As long as they have a "try again" or something it'll be great.

[Troels Pleimert]

I totally get what you both are saying.

 

Getting Roger killed on purpose over and over again for laughs was one of those liberating, rewarding elements of adventure game satire I am constantly on about, that I found so refreshing when I was a kid.

 

At their best, they were poking fun at their ridiculously over-serious contemporaries *cough*King's Quest*cough*, where the game would punish you like a harsh parent if you didn't mind your p's and q's.

 

At their worst, however, a perilous sequence would obstruct your progress, forcing the same death joke down your throat again and again until it wasn't funny anymore.

 

The Two Guys would probably chalk the latter category up to "bad design decisions." Their objective, I think, was purely to make us laugh. Frustrating players on purpose wasn't on their agenda. Or so they say. ;)

[Johnathon]

I find it interesting how the GamerBoomers Forums and SpaceSimCentral gave no criticism at all. They straight up embraced it and gladly. SpaceSim even posted news about it on their homepage.

 

I wonder if the crowd at AG's are more of the mythological/fantastical/serious-down-to-earth genre types? I can't say cause I've never spent any time there before.

 

EDIT: And pcj, the Try Again function of SQ6 was pure genius. I LOVED that about the game.

[Dat Engineer]

On the subject of deaths:

 

I vehemently, absolutely, completely, utterly disagree with the common consensus on TVTropes that Sierra games were unnecessarily hard and featured too many deaths. Really don't have much else to say about this matter, since I suppose it just boils down to personal taste. I'm of the school of thought that gamers are babied nowadays, especially in games like Call Of Duty or Heavy Rain, where the choice is essentially made for the player without an opportunity to interact.

[Chrono]

Obviously, as has been said here, we as Space Quest fans, tend to find the death's to be part of the essence of these games. However, there are many other adventure game fans that were first weened on the more Lucas Arts style games, where there were generally no dead ends of deaths. Some people just prefer their adventure games to be stress free, and play them at a leisurely place, and there is nothing wrong with this. However, I don't really see why people bother to post in the thread, if all they are going to say is that they don't like Space Quest; as if their personal taste in adventure games is 'correct' and decides which kickstarter projects would be worthy. I agree that a 'try again' feature would be a good compromise here.

[MusicallyInspired]

I totally agree with Mad_C33. Sierra games were difficult but it's hard for me to say they were unfair. I'm a seasoned Sierra adventure gamer so I know what to expect and I know how to avoid situations. When it catches me off guard I applaud the developers for being able to do so. I don't want my games to be entirely predictable, after all. The whole point is to present a challenge worthy to the player. A new list of tasks and challenges to overcome. Something he/she hasn't experienced before. It's understandable that some others don't like adventures this way and don't agree with this philosophy, but deaths were not design flaws. In the least. It's why I prefer Sierra games to LucasArts. And I do love LucasArts. I'm of the smaller minority that believes a Try Again button is too easy and destroys the entire point of deaths. In Space Quest's case, it's not so bad because the deaths had a second purpose; to be funny and outrageously entertaining.

[Collector]

I suspect that adults that whine about death scenes in games are just holding onto their childish reactions from when they were young. They also probably preferred LA games when they were young for the same reasons. I am not so sure how small that minority that does not like/want a try again button. It was yet one more reason that KQ7 was such a let down.

[Akril]

Eh...I figure when you're going to have that many people with such a broad age range and a wide variety of personal tastes gathered together in one place, there's bound to be some heated disagreements, even if the one thing they have in common is being fans of adventure games (a term whose definition seems to be gradually growing broader and broader). I personally don't mind deaths in adventure games, and having a "Try Again" as well as a "Restore" option after dying seems like a fair compromise to me.

 

On the topic of a topic I recently raised, Rex Nebular really took the sting out of the various violent (and somewhat amusing) deaths in the game by automatically "rewinding" back to the point right before you screwed up -- not even a "Whoops, you screwed up! Want to try that again?" message, it just plops you right back to where you were before you died. What's the point of having a lovingly detailed animation of Rex getting jumped on, dismembered and eaten by a 400-pound cavewoman if you can't even sit back and bask in the schadenfreude for a for a minute or so?

 

When it comes to dying in Space Quest, however, I have just one thing to say:

"It isn't dying -- it's failing with style!"

 

 

Sorry...I just had to say that at some point.

[Askre]

I must be one of those oddballs who never minded any death in the sierra adventure genre, be it the far more serious King's Quest to the downright Hilarious Space quest. This is actually my beef with the Lucas Art games, they are too easy because you can't die. There is no risk, there is no "oh dear if I do this to this guy will I die?" or "or I wonder if this is one of the games where you fall of edge.... yeah you do...". Don't get me wrong, I do love the various Lucas Art Games, but for me I feel the Sierra games are more realistic in terms of when you fail, because you fail in real life, things have consequences, trying to rob a store has consequences (shot in the head with a shotgun in Larry 1 for example). This is why I don't mind the deaths in Sierra games. I don't want to feel safe; I don't want to be pandered to. I want to be thrown out into the unknown with only my meager wits to defend myself with and whatever isn't nailed down around me and hope the next corner doesn't have an Orat ready to eat me.

[Telix Zmodem]

Thanks for sharing that link! Reminded me of Jay & Silent Bob!

Jay: All these *** on the internet are calling us names because of this stupid *** movie.

Banky: That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously. Stopping the flick isn't gonna stop that.

 

Here's what requests from a rational person looks like: Can you make it available for non-Chrome users? Any chance you can cut down on the death scenes, no matter how hilarious? Can you reveal the plot of the adventure game yet?

 

Instead we have posts demanding information now. People complaining that the video isn't 'good enough', or they don't care about voice actors, stop showing voice actors. Or making fun of the people in the video (that's just ridiculous btw, people are excited about the game!)

 

The only complaint that seemed legit (and not kids trolling the forums) was the timing of the Kickstarter. People want to support all of these adventure games! I agree, it's an issue, but we want all these games now! ;)

[mjomble]

+1 for the "Try Again" button.

 

To me, that makes a huge difference.

 

To make a generalization:

Death scenes with Try Again button = Fun

Death scenes without Try Again button = Punishment

 

Without having actually read the comments on AG, I'm assuming most of them are expressing their dislike of the second option, but wouldn't mind the first one.

If that is the case, I agree with them completely :)

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, I want to be penalized for my failures in an adventure game. It means I've been too careless. I imagine we'll end up with a try again function and that's fine. I just wish it wasn't the way of things.

[mjomble]

I guess an even better compromise then would be to add an optional Hardcore Mode where the Try Again button is disabled :D

[Askre]

I would be all for hard core mode. I tend to save very often (honestly that's one thing the Space Quest definately teaches you to do) so the whole "death being punishment" is really never a factor for me.

[vega]

Well, I've read the whole threads on Jane Jensen, LSL and Space Quest Kickstarters (quite a lot of reading material) and from what I gather some of the more childish (and negative) responses are either by people who are big fans of Jane Jensen, who are envious (as some explicitly state) of the others success. Jane Jensen has a very vocal but smaller fanbase than the other Sierra series. I personally really like her Sierra games, but I would have liked her to try a different game with this Kickstarter campaign (I really liked the Anglophile adventure concept). This would of course have alienated a lot of her fans. I guess it's a problem with fans in general. We except the same thing from the our favourite artists. I, for one, would've loved Scott and Mark to try out something completely different (a medieval adventure or something). But, I'm very excited either way about their new game.

 

To come back to the AG forums, their attitude however is completely baffling. People complain for years that adventure games of the last decade are mediocre (and unfortunately they are) and when there is finally a strong revival of the genre they complain about the pitch video not being good enough, that they are keeping features hostage (!?) or about other trivial things. I guess it says a lot about human nature :)